teyla | Feminism?

As a rule, I try to keep out of feminist discussions, because they usually end up giving me a headache. But I just had a conversation with my sister which made me wonder what you guys would say.

Picture this: In a city where most bus drivers are male, there's a female bus driver whose driving quite objectively sucks.

Question:

Is it the duty of that female bus driver to change her driving style so as not to enforce some people's prejudices about women and driving,

or

should the female bus driver keep driving the way she drives because if people see their prejudices justified by her driving, it's a problem they have to work on themselves, and nobody should expect the female bus driver to change her ways just because of those people?

Discuss! ;)

ETA: Of course, whether or not the female bus driver should change her driving because she's endangering people by driving suckily is another discussion entirely. This is just about whether or not the first point above is a valid point or not.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

No, people should expect her to change her driving because it sucks, or there is a potential safety. Gender and prejudices shouldn't come into it at all. Using something like that as an excuse for anything itself sucks.

Yeah, whether or not she should change her driving for safety reasons is another thing.

Gender and prejudices shouldn't come into it at all.
Yeah, I thought so, too.

*lol* what a discussion. I think every bus driver not matter if it´s a male or a female drive their bus and they don´t think about any prejudices of other people. But well *lol* I´ll will give you one point more to discuss: female car driver are not able to drive a car. Sorry but that´s my experiences every morning in the big traffic. ;-))

female car driver are not able to drive a car.

The accident statistics disagree with you there. The majority of all major accidents are caused by men.

yeah, I know but this statistics is the opposition to my experiences at every morning. I know I don´t do every time the right thing but sometimes I do have big doubts that some women really should have a driver license.

Well, but then you get off the city streets and onto the Autobahn, and the drivers of the big BMWs that are glued to your rear bumper as soon as you dare to venture onto the left lane are almost exclusively male. So I guess it balances out ;).

Yeah, I guess you are right. That´s the balance. I do drive a Ford Transit. Do you know that car? It´s a transporter and I have to drive a few Kilometer on the "Autobahn" every morning. Last year in October I end in the "Leitplanke" at the "Auffahrt" because a stupid woman with a fast car (a Renault Scenic) tried to passed me in the Auffahrt. There is a little ascent and that girl pushed me into the Leitplanke. She didn´t noticed what she has caused. Arrgh if I start I couldn´t stop to talk about that theme and honestly I think there are a lot of people in the traffic who better don´t should have a driver license not matter if they are male or female. Oh and this morning it was completly problem-free *smile*

arrgh, sorry that was me

;) No problem.

I'd say that depends entirely on the situation. If the woman's behavior objectively sucks - like, for example, bad driving - she should damn well do better, and feminism doesn't even enter into it.

But if she's not doing anything actually wrong, fuck what the prejudiced idiots think. I don't think any of us have an obligation to do justice to some kind of feminist ideal of behavior.

I don't think any of us have an obligation to do justice to some kind of feminist ideal of behavior
Hah, couldn't have found a better way to say it. I so agree with you there :D.

Why are most of the bus drivers male?

But if it comes down to it...the second answer. I think using this particular scenario (where bad driving is a safety issue) is distracting to people. So just mentally translate this to another situation, where safety doesn't come into it. Are women obligated to try to buck people's prejudiced and misogynistic expectations?

Answer: No.

Because the oppressed group gains NOTHING by altering their behaviour in a way that still functions within the boundaries of the social expectations of the oppressive social system to which they belong.

I'm not sure if that makes sense, but: if you are deliberately acting in a way which goes against some misogynistic expectation, you are still on some level giving that expectation some credit.

And to reiterate what you've already said: it's NOT on the shoulders of the oppressed to convince their oppressors that they deserve to be treated as people. It's not their responsibility.

Imagine you knocked something someone was carrying out of their hands, and then, rather than saying, "Oh, I'm sorry!" and picking it up, you said, "Look at how clumsy you are! Pick that up immediately!"

In that scenario, it's blatantly obvious how ridiculous your position would be. And yet, we [universal "we"] constantly expect the oppressed (women, people of color, disabled people, etc.) to take on the responsibility for ending their own oppression.

Bzzzt, wrong answer!

/soapbox

Why are most of the bus drivers male?
I don't know. In my city, they just are ;).

I think using this particular scenario is distracting to people.
Yeah, true. I just used it because it was what my sister and I were talking about - there's this one female bus driver we both know and think drives suckily, and that's how this discussion developed in the first place.

if you are deliberately acting in a way which goes against some misogynistic expectation, you are still on some level giving that expectation some credit.
Hah, you guys all have so many better ways to put this than I had. This is exactly what I told my sister. She didn't agree with me, though. Even though usually, she's the more feminist one of the two of us.

Which only makes me wonder once again how useful and constructive some feminist ideals actually are.

I don't think the first point is valid. Yes, if she's endangering people she should change her ways, or consider a less driving intensive career, but that has nothing to do with her gender. I don't really think gender should factor into that decision at all.

Yes, that's what I thought, too. I don't really get the other angle; it doesn't really make sense to me.

Apparently, I'm not the only one :).

Maybe she should just quit driving and start a carreer as kindergarten-teacher.

I'm feeling EVIL this morning! ;-)

Or maybe she should load her bus full of kindergarden kids and then drive as suckily as she can.

Now who's EVILLER??? ;D

darn, you win... ;-)

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